RANT: Hybrid Cars are Stupid!

[zackwatt]

I am in a ranting mood so I thought I'd attack Hybrid Cars.
To start, I think Hybrid Cars are just plain stupid. I know "stupid" is not quite the term to use when creating the basis for an argument, but I don't know how else to express myself. I think they are a joke, and people are fools for buying them. I have devised a list of reasons why I feel this way.

1) "THEY DON'T DO WHAT THEY ARE BUILT TO DO"
What good is an automobile that does not do what it is built to do? It is worthless! There is no doubt about it. I will say that a Hybrid Car is built to simply lower emissions and save the environment more than non-hybrid cars. Some say that they do, but I say they don't! If you drive the vehicle the way that a "normal person" drives, then you will be running on the gasoline engine almost the entire time and thats not environmental at all. I see no more environmental savings then your normal run of the mill, small car.

2) "THEY DON'T GET AMAZING MPG"
As addressed above Hybrid Cars do not get the gas mileage they advertise. The EPA just recently reconfigured their MPG Test. They now incorporate more everyday driving, slamming the gas, hard braking, stop 'n go, etc. Most cars changed only a few MPG, but Hybrid Car's MPG was slashed, sometimes as much as 18%. As an example the Prius went from 60MPG city to 48MPG. I still think you would find it difficult to get 48MPG, but it is a much more real number then 60. The MPG figures on other Hybrid Cars now approach the MPG figures of their gasoline counterparts, such as the Civic, Camry and Accord.

3) "THEY DON'T SAVE YOU MONEY"
Ok, so maybe a few extra MPG is what you are really interested in. Who Isn't? Maybe, you could care less about the environment and you think the few extra MPG Hybrid Car will save you money, right? WRONG! Hybrid Cars are sooo much more expensive then their gasoline counterparts you may never recoup the loss from the pump. This is an extreme example, but a base Camry MSRP is: $18,570. The Camry Hybrid MSRP is: $25,200! That is a difference of over $6,600. That is horrible, if all you are out to do is save at the pump. How many tens of thousands of miles must you drive before you just break even? More than I care to count.

4) "THEY ARE BORING AND UNCOOL TO DRIVE"
....enough said.

5) "THEY WASTE THE DEVELOPING RESOURCES OF COMPANIES"
Instead of wasting time developing Hybrid Cars, Car companies should be more focused on better fuel economy in general, other available fuels such as E83 and diesel, and alternative fuels (if that ever happens). Most European versions of US cars come in a diesel platform and they get better MPG and are cleaner for the environment. Why has the US not adapted a Diesel car program? Don't tell me its because people think its "dirty".

It has come down to this......
If you want an affordable car that gets good gas mileage. Buy the Non-Hybrid Version.

End Rant.

I will admit that I have made some extreme accusations here, that is what rants are for. I am open to criticism, especially the ones that tell me that I am wrong :D

[Wonko The Sane]

My biggest gripe with hybrids is the stuff that goes inside of the batteries.. Do a little research on what happens to the ground in the 3rd world countries they bury them in after they're spent..

It's not pretty, not pretty at all.

Cradle-to-grave ecological costs are a LOT higher with a hybrid than even a gas-guzzleing SUV, due to battery creation and disposal.

[racer_d]

The place hybrids make sense is in a city environment when running on electric power. Idling in traffic (think NYC rush hour, not Omaha rush hour) and the reduction of noise and exhaust would be a huge gain.

That said, for a long actual driving commute, give me a low suphur fueled Diesel. I know a Golf/Jetta WILL get the advertised mileage without having to try hard for it.

The price delta for a regular vs hybrid is MORE than enough to pay for years of "cheap gas". Some examples would require driving thousands to tens of thousands more miles per year to make a hybrid cost advantage and lets be honest, the folks buying Hybrids will only keep them 3-5 years.. not 10-20 years.

Side rant - the "environmentalist" who says he rarely drives his car.. and it is a 10 year old car that actually emites MORE green house emissions than a new car would. Getting "old" cars off the road would do more to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions than anything else would right now.. But who drives "old" cars - the less well off (poor) so no one touches THAT political lightening rod ;)

Side rant off.

[Wonko The Sane]

Actually, California just had a bill shot down (luckily!) that REALLY tried to get old cars off the road.. they made it basically impossible to keep an old car running due to the emissions tests. This would have (un?)intentionally killed the hot-rod and modder scene, as well.

However, i don't think that getting rid of the old cars would do THAT much to help out the emissions. Most cars only last 20ish years until they're junked, with the number junked vs. the number on the road growing exponentially every year.

Let's say a law came out that all cars had to be junked every 5 years, to ensure they meet modern emissions standards.. The cradle-to-grave cost to the environment would vastly outweigh the tailpipe emissions cost of keeping the car on the road an additional ten years.

[RandallNeighbour]

But who drives "old" cars - the less well off (poor) so no one touches THAT political lightening rod

Don't be so quick to judge a person's wealth by what they drive. The rich don't get rich and/or stay rich by pissing away their money buying new cars all the time.

Moreover, when I can get a BMW or Merc driver to tell me the truth, they say they are in debt up to their eyeballs and if they had to cash out, they'd have to borrow money from their parents or children to do it. Debt-laden Americans are really less well off than the truly poor among us in my opinion from a pencil and paper examination of who owns what outright.

I always encourage everyone I know to read a classic called, "The millionaire next door." What a researcher found was that most millionaires are people who live next door to you and I in average homes, who buy 2-3 year old cars and drive them for 10+ years, shop at regular stores and buy off-brand clothes, etc.

Now to get back on topic [sorry for the diversion!] I just saw a Camry Hybrid last night and wondered if my wife would want one for our commuter car next time around. However, since we are now acting like the "millionaire next door" and accumulating our wealth and not pissing it away to live large like most Americans, a hybrid would not be a good purchase for us. We would buy one 2-3 years old and keep it 10-15 years and that battery cost would slay me if I had to lay it out just to keep the car running.

Two years ago, the wife gave me a box of new batteries for Christmas. I was so excited because I just knew I'd opened the gifts up in the wrong order and she must have bought me a new RC car or battery operated toy of some sort. NOT. She just gave me batteries.

Talk about a let down! Batteries? JUST batteries? What were you thinking? Did you wander away from the underwear isle at Kmart and decide to get me batteries instead of underwear like someone's grandmother?

All this to say, any talk of batteries [even batteries for hybrid cars] now just gets me all worked up and hot under the collar. :D

[johnsonrj74]

I would have to disagree with the “rant” and say many hybrids do have their place and their uses (though “Hybrid-SUV” is an Oxymoron). Yes, today’s hybrids are not great to look at, they are not cheap and they are really only effective (as an fuel-efficient car) when used around a city in stop-go traffic.

Let’s be honest though: The sort of people that buy today’s hybrids are probably very different from the people who talk on this forum. We are a group whose membership clearly love sleek, fast, sexy cars so we’re unlikely to be the most supportive bunch in the world of these cars which are generally ugly, slow and, above all, dull!

That said: Today’s hybrids are the first generation of a new type of car – Just like when petrol cars first started at the end of the 19th century, they were designed for function instead style. I wonder if hybrids or all-electric cars (Good E-cars are coming, just look at the Tesla - http://www.teslamotors.com/ ) looked and performed like most Porsches, would many on this forum feel the same about them?……

[Lucky]

Counterpoint.

My DD is a 2007 Civic Hybrid, so my response to you rant is based on a sample of 1, but at least there is some actual bonafide, real, direct experience with a hybrid vehicle backing up my viewpoint.

~~~~~

1) "THEY DON'T DO WHAT THEY ARE BUILT TO DO"
They are built to be a car, no more, no less. As a car, my Civic Hybrid works great. Quiet, comfortable, very reliable, smooth, gets me from a-to-b with no drama, etc.

2) "THEY DON'T GET AMAZING MPG"
On average I get 47 to 49 mpg in my Civic. In comfortable weather when I don't need to use A/C, I get well over 50 mpg. In the heat of summer, mileage drops to mid-40's. Worst tank in 8,000 miles of driving was 42 mpg, and that was mostly 75+ mph freeway trips. My 55 mile round trip daily commute is about 45% twisties, 10% stop-and-go, and 45% 65 mph freeway. The Civic is very well rounded in that it gets good mileage in all three situations.

3) "THEY DON'T SAVE YOU MONEY"
Lies, damn lies, and statistics as was once said. You can manipulate the so-called costs in many ways and claim they don't save money in many situations. The only situation that matters is that of the individual buyer. For me, it works. A Civic Hybrid costs about $2000 to $3000 more than the EX Auto (similar equipment level), depending on one's negotiating skills. The government gives back $2100 as a tax credit, but not everyone's tax situation allows them to claim the full credit. For the most skeptical cost model, let's assume the resulting cost delta minus tax credits is $2000. How long will it take to recoup that? Let's do the math.

I'll use objective numbers, since driving style is too much of a variable. The 2008 EPA combined estimates are 42 for the Hybrid, 29 for the EX Auto. That's 13 mpg better in the Hybrid. The break-even is 68,000 miles assuming $2.75/gal of regular. I put 20,000 miles per year on my commuter, I'll break even in less than 3.5 years.

This is pure and simple economics, no value attached to the reduced CO2 output.

4) "THEY ARE BORING AND UNCOOL TO DRIVE"
Boring and uncool are states of mind. Hybrids are more like a video game with the various displays showing you what the gas and electric motors are doing and where energy is flowing. They can be fun if you decide to enjoy the different driving experience. Maximizing fuel economy is another form of "performance" driving, but with different criteria (instead of speed or lateral gees or whatever).

5) "THEY WASTE THE DEVELOPING RESOURCES OF COMPANIES"
Really? History rewards the victors. If hybrids flop in the marketplace, you will be absolutely correct. However, Toyota sells the most hybrids and is kicking butt in the overall marketplace. Maybe hybrids are a brilliant marketing ploy since they generate foot traffic in the showroom. Maybe that's why Toyota is doing so well at selling all of their vehicle lines? Hard to say. If it is such a waste, why does every vehicle manufacturer have hybrid models either under development or in production? Porsche included!

~~~~~

As far as the toxic metals in battery packs goes, yes they can be mined in environmentally unfriendly manners. The mine in Canada that has been getting much publicity recently is an environmental mess. No life for miles around due to the heavy toxic pollution. What most miss, however, is that the pollution occurred in the 1950's long before Hybrids existed. The mine is now operating in a very environmentally friendly manner, but the damage has been done and will take 100's of years for nature to repair. Only someone easily brainwashed by news stories would blame hybrid battery packs for that environmental mess.

Also, the battery packs -- when spent -- do not end up in landfills. The heavy metals in them are easily recycled and too valuable not to. Much like the lead in conventional car batteries.

~~~~~

One last thing. Would I want a hybrid as an only car? Hell no. I enjoy driving way too much for that. But for me, a hybrid is an excellent commuter car and the perfect companion for my Boxster S.

Cheers.

-- John

[zackwatt]

John, You make some very good points and it appears I have my work cut out for me.

My biggest disgust with Hybrid Cars is how much the "public" loves them. I cannot express this enough. In response to their sales flopping, they won't. There is too much demand from the "public". That is why almost every manufacturer, including Porsche, will soon have a Hybrid in the lineup, but Lets talk about the "public" for a second. People in general, especially the "public" are fools. They will believe whatever they see, hear or read. They don't fully weigh the options, nor do they take everything into consideration. Why did Ford build the Excursion? Simple, It was what the "public" wanted. They see the word "Hybrid" and all of a sudden there is another "best selling" car. I believe it is more marketing then an actual care for the environment, lowering emissions, etc. This marketing ploy is wasting resources that could be better spent on the bigger picture, and not just an instant fix (or moneymaker).

Now John, I am not calling you a fool. You obviously weighed the options and thought your decision through. Your Hybrid works for you. BUT, I think you proved my point about the lack of financial savings. 68,000 miles to just break even. HA, It is a slap in the face. At the national average on 12,000 miles a year, It would be closer to 5 years to break even and I think most people flip cars before 5 years or 68,000 miles. I also think I might have read something about those pesky batteries needing to be replaced every 3-5 years. I could be wrong.

The only place Hybrid Cars begin to work is with SUVs, as johnsonrj74 said. SUV's suck for Fuel economy. I know, I've got one, But I won't give it up for anything! It is with a Hybrid SUV that there is greater possibility to make a financial gain. So, maybe they work.

My main problem is with small hybrid cars. If you want a small, fuel efficient car and you don't necessarily care about performance, then DIESEL is the answer. Diesel, especially BioDiesel, can be cheaper, produce great fuel economy, be clean, and still receive government tax breaks.

So, Stop building Hybrids and start building Diesel cars!

[Perfectlap]

we should have dumped gas engines and gone electric a loooong time ago.

park the car at night let it recharge and tell the Russians and Saudis to go to hell.
Simple right? guess not.

[bmussatti]

In about 4 years, I hope to get a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, to replace my 2007 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer.

[Franco]

we should have dumped gas engines and gone electric a loooong time ago.

park the car at night let it recharge and tell the Russians and Saudis to go to hell.
Simple right? guess not.

You Forgot To Mention Bush. :D

[timothy]

Hybrids today may not be exhilarating compared to a Porsche, but +1 on the Tesla roadster. As pointed out earlier it's not a hybrid, but if that is the direction of things to come, bring it on and hurry up! Now of course by the time it gets stripped down to a vehicle that "real" people can afford, it will probably look exactly a Civic. What Toyota, Honda, or even Tesla should build is a $25-30k hybrid that doesn't look like one. How about, oh, a body style reminiscent of Noble M15, Zonda, or whatever else floats your boat. Now that's something I might consider.

[Lucky]

People in general, especially the "public" are fools. They will believe whatever they see, hear or read. They don't fully weigh the options, nor do they take everything into consideration.

Agreed.

Now John, I am not calling you a fool.

That's nice. I'm so relieved.

I also think I might have read something about those pesky batteries needing to be replaced every 3-5 years. I could be wrong.

Hmmm. Do you believe everything you read? You are coming across a bit discombobulated to me. On the one hand you say people who believe everything they read are idiots and then you post this idiocy that you read somewhere?

Some facts to consider: Hybrid batteries come with a federally mandated 8 year, 80,000 mile warranty -- just like emissions components. California law ups that to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Toyota and Honda meet these warranty requirements with the same battery pack in all states. Do you think they design the battery packs to last 8/80 or 10/150? No doubt they design them so they have a very high percentage chance of exceeding the 10/150 requirement so the warranty claims don't compromise future shareholder profits.

If you applied this -- some packs have failed in 3 to 5 years -- logic to a Boxster, would you buy one? Given the well publicized history of RMS leaks, intermediate shaft failures, porous engine cases, AOS & MAF failures, etc.? I think not. By your logic, Boxsters make no sense -- who would buy one? They cost a lot to buy than most cars, are slower than many sports cars, are expensive to repair, and are known to fail in dramatic ways!

Your logical argument lacks... well, it lacks logic.

My main problem is with small hybrid cars. If you want a small, fuel efficient car and you don't necessarily care about performance, then DIESEL is the answer. Diesel, especially BioDiesel, can be cheaper, produce great fuel economy, be clean, and still receive government tax breaks.

So, Stop building Hybrids and start building Diesel cars!

Gas-Electric Hybrids are a transient technology. Just like multi-port FI was the transition from carbs to DFI. Now that DFI is known to be superior to FI, who in their right mind would buy a car with an engine that doesn't have DFI?

Technology evolves. Gas-Electric Hybrids will become Diesel-Electric Hybrids. If you can take a 30mpg gas car and make it achieve 50 with a few electric motors, regenerative braking, and auto-shutoff of the engine at stoplights -- imagine what you get when you apply the same technology to a small diesel powered car. 70 to 80 mpg seems likely.

Once high-power-density power packs (such as Li-Poly) are ready to meet the above mentioned warranty requirements, then hybrids will morph into pure electrics or series hybrids like the Chevy Volt concept. But like all technology, it will take time for engineers to go through the trial & error process of testing many designs before they find one that is good enough to put into production.

Hybrids are simply prototypes for the future of the automobile and we should all realise that it is good that people are buying them now. Those that do are helping spread the development costs over more years so that future electric or partial electric cars, including sports cars and SUVs, will be affordable.

[Seubs]

Diesel engines are gaining more popularity in the US, but the EPA keeps coming up with more stringent emissions laws that make it very hard for the automakers to effectively market and produce a profitable vehicle. Then you also have to consider the CARB (california air resouce board) that has even tougher standards. if an automake wants to sell a vehicle in all 50 states they have to meet EPA and CARB emission levels.
diesels get better mpg but also cost more to produce and therefore are an $1000+ option. the most recent EPA emissions law is for 2007 vehicles so i think that a lot of '08 and '09 models will be offering diesels.

[Brucelee]

The next versions of gas/electric hybrids shoud be much more interesting.

I believe that we will get to a version that is much like the train engine set ups. IE diesel generator engines and electric motive engines.

That SHOULD be very efficient and CAN be made into a very quick car.

We shall see.

PS-I rented a Prius once. I HATED the car.