Can the whole car be carbon Fiber?

[Brucelee]

I love technology



July 17, 2008 Britain's Axon claims that its newly patented mass-production techniques will make carbon composite car frames and bodyworkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodywork even cheaper than their metal counterparts - and only 40% as heavy. What a revolutionary technology this could be - the power to weight ratio of any vehicle on the planet could be dramatically increased for no extra cost! The company plans to release a highly affordable 500ccReview-of-Three-Wheeled-Vehicles Mar-08 passenger car making at least 100mpg from a basic petrolhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline engine in 2010, and Axon is confident its simple, lightweight solution to the fuel economy challenge will be highly competitive against the big competition in the Progressive Automotive X-Prize contest.

It's been common knowledge for decades the carbon-fiber composites offer the strength of steel with only a fraction of the weight - but they're still viewed as exotic materials because of the high cost of traditional manufacturing techniques. And since it's been cheaper and more marketable to boost engine powerMultiple-Personality-Cars than to look at making lighter cars, most manufacturers have stuck with steel and aluminum.

But carbon fiberMaking-a-Racket May-07 specialists at Axon believe their new mass-manufacturing process can make carbon fiber frames and bodywork even cheaper than their metal counterparts. To back up their claims, they company plans to release this 2-seater, 500cc passenger car in 2010 at "an affordable price" - and they're aiming for more than 100 mpg from a simple, small 500cc engine, simply because it will be so light.If Axon, which presented displayed its platform as part of the FoS-Tech pavilion at this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed, can prove that carbon composites can be as cheap and reliable as steel or aluminum, the same technology could generate massive efficiency increases in cars from other manufacturers around the world - although the cost of switching over from metal could prove a killer for established automakersDetroit-Auto-Show-2008 . Still, while the average buyer is still more likely to pay extra for a more powerful car than a more efficient one, a technological advance of this kind could mean a huge increase in performance for no extra price - and that's the sort of thing car buyers will respond to.

More from our friends at Transport 2.0.

[Quickurt]

Manufacturing conversion is the big factor for the established manufacturers.
Look at how they bounce 3600 lb. NASCAR cars off of concrete walls with, usually, no, or very minor injuries, and do it all at speeds nearing 200 MPH. Then ask yourself why there are so many fatal accidents on the street at speeds nowhere near 60 mph.
The answer lies in manufacturing cars from thin sheet metal, stamped to shape and spot welded together, because we have a billion dollars worth of equipment to do that. If you think we're walking away from that investment just to save the lives of a few hundred of our customers a year, you're nuts. Hell, we don't even offer real 4 or 5 point harnesses to replace our joke retractable death belts.
You can bet your butts if this company gets these carbon cars on the market, there will be a slew of incredibly dangerous accidents like Audi 5000's that put themselves in gear and go to full throttle every time a kid walks in front of them in the garage.
And NBC will duplicate the "accident" on a news special.

[stef]

It might actually be safer if all cars were pintos, instead of having 3 or 4 point harnesses and crush zones.

From Why Things Bite Back: Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences
Disaster control encourages people to occupy unsafe areas. Medicine has helped to cure acute illnesses and injury, but chronic diseases are more common as a result; miracle crops and new animals let loose in strange habitats have run wild; forest fires have been reduced, but the unburned growth that collects makes fires worse when they do occur. Suppressing forest fires builds up combustible materials for larger conflagrations. Safer cars and sports equipment make people more reckless. The invention of a safer football helmet actually led to more injuries because the new helmets increased the game’s aggressive possibilities.

It's a bizarre phenomenon... the more protection you pile on, the worse the injuries tend to be. Traveling through Europe, you'll find all sorts of dangerous situations that everyone prudently avoids; open elevator shafts, construction zones, cliffs, etc. They're generally well marked. In the US, there are warnings but also all sorts of barriers, and as a result there are all sorts of lawsuits when someone manages to stupidly bypass the barrier and hurt himself. Somehow it becomes the fault of the person erecting the barrier to try to stop stupid people from hurting themselves.

[70Sixter]

Stef,

It really isn't that bizarre a phenomenon, it is The Death of Common Sense in America.

With hefty help from the Trial Lawyers and their Insurance Lottery Participant clients.

[Brucelee]

My understanding is that CF is stronger than steel but has some give our bounce in it. All things being equal, this SHOULD be safer, right?

I also understand that more and more CF is being used in planes, as this is lighter and takes stress better. Or. so I am told.

[Brucelee]

Aircraft orders put carbon fiber prices in steep climb
Updated 7/3/2007 6:53 PM | Comments3 | Recommend5 E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions |




Digg del.icio.us Newsvine Reddit Facebook What's this? By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
Booming demand for new jetliners is driving up the cost of carbon fiber, a high-tech material used in products ranging from cars to hockey sticks.
Prices for carbon fiber now run as high as $20 a pound, compared with as little as $5 a pound three or four years ago, says Mike Musselman, managing editor of High Performance Composites magazine. Spot shortages have developed, too. Carbon fiber manufacturers are boosting production, but it may be another year before all the new lines are running.

Carbon fiber is a woven synthetic that, helped by resins, hardens into a solid plastic, stronger yet lighter than many metals.

Lower weight is making Boeing's new 787 jetliner a hit, with 584 on order. Half the weight will be from carbon fiber and other composites in the fuselage, wings and tail that will cut fuel use by up to 20%.

Airbus plans to use carbon-fiber wings on the 787 rival, the A350. Qatar Airways said last week it will boost its A350 orders to 80, an increase of 20.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Internet | California | Boeing | Airbus | Irvine | Saleen | Industry News | Cannondale
"Boeing and Airbus are scarfing up what's available," Musselman says. "The rest of the folks get what's left."

Carbon fiber supplier Zoltek has tripled capacity over the past year to service the growing market. "We've been able to raise prices significantly in a two-year time frame," CFO Kevin Schott says.

Where the carbon fiber crunch is showing up:

•Cars and accessories. Specialty sports carmaker Saleen in Irvine, Calif., says the costs of the carbon fiber that it uses in the body of its $580,000 S7 supercar have more than doubled over the past year. It raised the 2007 price by $25,000 because of it.

Illstreet.com, an Internet business that sells carbon fiber car hoods to automotive enthusiasts, has seen costs almost double. It's had to switch to a higher grade of carbon fiber to avoid shortages it faced last year. "It was taking three to four weeks for product to come in," owner Chris Osborne says. He says he hasn't increased prices.

•Bicycles. Bike makers use carbon fiber for lightweight frames. "Without a doubt, they've seen increased prices, but that's been going on for some time," says Megan Tompkins of Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. Trek and Cannondale lined up supply in advance of the crunch and haven't had to raise prices. "We kind of hedged our bet," Trek's Jim Colegrove says.

•Hockey sticks. Easton Sports has tested new carbon fibers over the past few years. Some of the sticks have had "subtle redesigns" to accommodate the new grades of fibers, says Ned Goldsmith, senior vice president. But prices weren't increased, and, "It has been seamless for the customers," he says.

[Brucelee]

Aircraft orders put carbon fiber prices in steep climb
Updated 7/3/2007 6:53 PM | Comments3 | Recommend5 E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions |




Digg del.icio.us Newsvine Reddit Facebook What's this? By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
Booming demand for new jetliners is driving up the cost of carbon fiber, a high-tech material used in products ranging from cars to hockey sticks.
Prices for carbon fiber now run as high as $20 a pound, compared with as little as $5 a pound three or four years ago, says Mike Musselman, managing editor of High Performance Composites magazine. Spot shortages have developed, too. Carbon fiber manufacturers are boosting production, but it may be another year before all the new lines are running.

Carbon fiber is a woven synthetic that, helped by resins, hardens into a solid plastic, stronger yet lighter than many metals.

Lower weight is making Boeing's new 787 jetliner a hit, with 584 on order. Half the weight will be from carbon fiber and other composites in the fuselage, wings and tail that will cut fuel use by up to 20%.

Airbus plans to use carbon-fiber wings on the 787 rival, the A350. Qatar Airways said last week it will boost its A350 orders to 80, an increase of 20.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Internet | California | Boeing | Airbus | Irvine | Saleen | Industry News | Cannondale
"Boeing and Airbus are scarfing up what's available," Musselman says. "The rest of the folks get what's left."

Carbon fiber supplier Zoltek has tripled capacity over the past year to service the growing market. "We've been able to raise prices significantly in a two-year time frame," CFO Kevin Schott says.

Where the carbon fiber crunch is showing up:

•Cars and accessories. Specialty sports carmaker Saleen in Irvine, Calif., says the costs of the carbon fiber that it uses in the body of its $580,000 S7 supercar have more than doubled over the past year. It raised the 2007 price by $25,000 because of it.

Illstreet.com, an Internet business that sells carbon fiber car hoods to automotive enthusiasts, has seen costs almost double. It's had to switch to a higher grade of carbon fiber to avoid shortages it faced last year. "It was taking three to four weeks for product to come in," owner Chris Osborne says. He says he hasn't increased prices.

•Bicycles. Bike makers use carbon fiber for lightweight frames. "Without a doubt, they've seen increased prices, but that's been going on for some time," says Megan Tompkins of Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. Trek and Cannondale lined up supply in advance of the crunch and haven't had to raise prices. "We kind of hedged our bet," Trek's Jim Colegrove says.

•Hockey sticks. Easton Sports has tested new carbon fibers over the past few years. Some of the sticks have had "subtle redesigns" to accommodate the new grades of fibers, says Ned Goldsmith, senior vice president. But prices weren't increased, and, "It has been seamless for the customers," he says.

[Brucelee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww

[Quickurt]

I don't have my computer, I am at my daughter's house in Olympia, WA, but there is also concern in vintage racing circles about aging effects in CF. Several F1 chassis have broken apart from far less serious accidents than those that caused little or no damage on the same chassis when they were new. I am also not talking about chassis that had had serious shunts when they were newer, but chassis made during the same production runs that were never active race cars when new.
The concern is degradation from age. Ferrari will sell you vintage F1 cars put together from chassis left from those years with really neat "send it back" maintenance packages for those with endless supplies of those little green bills........now the discussions are to make new CF tubs from the original tooling to insure the same safety the cars had when new.
If this is the case, cars made entirely from CF may have an age safety criteria that would make them cost prohibitive.
It also concerns me with the safety of my very expensive Bell Vortex CF helmet.
After wearing it, other mere mortal helmets are like wearing a bowling ball on your head!

[Quickurt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww
Ovation makes CF back guitars that have a phenomenal sound!

[fragdude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww

Not only is that very "new age" and "high tech," but it would be cool if you go to a recital and when the cellist is done s/he hammers the ground with the cello with no ill side effects to the instrument. it would add a whole new element to music recitals....