Any patent/trademark saavy people here?

[RandallNeighbour]

I'm doing a little investigative work on designing and selling aftermarket windscreens (both the black ones that go in the rollbars and the clear plexiglass one for the center.

Can anyone tell me if I'd get sued quickly by Porsche if I designed similar products?

I'm considering doing this because what Porsche sells them for is outrageous and everyone seems to need them.

Any lawyers or inventors out there who can consult me for free on this idea? ;)

[donv]

Seriously, I work in the technology field and the one thing I've found that is fairly certain is that anyone can sue anybody for just about anything. Eventually you may win, but it is more often a question of who cries "uncle" first due to running out of money. Porsche has way deeper pockets...

If you are really serious about proceding, you can check to see if they have patented the idea by searching the US patent office database (or similar for Europe, etc). I suspect not, as other brands of cars have similar things, but they may be in a patent cross-licensing agreement with Porsche. If it is not a unique advancement of the art then it should not be patentable. But again, that doesn't mean somebody can't try to sue you over it, as some really questionable patents have been being granted lately... and patent protection durations keep being extended.

The more tricky thing could be other "property" rights, like trademark or copyright. I'm no expert (other that reading Lawrence Lessig's (http://www.lessig.org/blog/) essays, like Free Culture (http://www.free-culture.cc)), but if Porsche had some claim to the "look" of the design then you could possibly run afoul of that.

But, if you made your design substantially different than Porsche's while still being compatible in mounting then you may be OK.

You paid nothing for this advice, so you know what it is worth... :D Good luck!

And BTW, interestingly enough, I had the same product idea shortly after I got my car... I'd paid for the package primarily to get the windblock and thought that was one of the most expensive pieces of plastic ever!

[Adam]

Ya know I agree with Don. If it was feasble to undercut Porsche on a product like that, I would think someone would have already done it and made a small fortune. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

[wetstuff]

....probably, unknowingly, the most important thing posted: Adam's regarding a 'small fortune'. Unlike most perspective observations; the pot at the end of these aftermarket rainbows does not get larger as you get closer to it.

If you need one of these; I'd scour the boneyards or pony up to Suncoast or Brandywine.


Jim

[RandallNeighbour]

I don't need windscreens. I have the two black ones and the center clear one as well.

My thought was to create an improved center windscreen that doesn't rattle, stays in place, and is far less money than Suncoast or Brandywine or one's local dealer.

Heck, I'd like to see them sold far cheaper than the used OEM windscreens for sale on Ebay!

It cannot be hard to do or to manufacture. I already have an idea for a center windscreen that will eliminate rattling forever and be very cheap to create and sell.

[wetstuff]

....then an outfit like Curbell (curbell.com) has about every plastic know to man...and Harbor Sales (800 345 1712) does custom cutting to any 2D layout, also sells plastic sheet. Buy an edge buffer, some fasteners and yur-in-bidnes.

I hope you have a great idea for the screens in the roll hoops - even cheap tooling from Portugal may buy you a big chunk of your next car.

Bon chance.

jim

[wild1poet2]

I know this is an old thread, but my windscreens just came in yesterday. The dealer gave me a break because of my "patience" but still I paid $475. Yikes! Basically for a piece of lexan.

Randall did you ever start this venture up? My advice would be to at least put it in a separate corporation to insulate you from any claims whether by Porsche or third parties(eg; windscreen flies off and decapitates following motorcyclist). You can go to the US Patent and Trademark website and file for protection yourself. There is a fee. I filed myself for a custom bike venture I'm working on but the filing came back with a request for more distinguishing information. Now I made need help from a trademark attorney.

Unless you have a valuable concept you want to protect I would skip the patent process and start up without it. Then when your volume warrants it you can worry about it then. Worse case is you have a claim filed against your corp. which you maintain minimal assets in.

jim

[RandallNeighbour]

I still want to create vastly improved windscreens for the 986 and 986 that don't rattle.

Porsche should have done what I've designed in 1998. It's simple and won't break like the clips on the ones they have now. In fact, it's cheaper to manufacture and is quite low-tech, yet attractive.

I'd say more but I don't want the idea stolen. Should I get some prototypes made for use and abuse, I'll ask a few of you rattle-weary owners to be my gineau pigs. :)

[rbennett]

I'm doing a little investigative work on designing and selling aftermarket windscreens (both the black ones that go in the rollbars and the clear plexiglass one for the center.

Can anyone tell me if I'd get sued quickly by Porsche if I designed similar products?

I'm considering doing this because what Porsche sells them for is outrageous and everyone seems to need them.

Any lawyers or inventors out there who can consult me for free on this idea? ;)

Randall, Old thread but thought I would pipe up, I have a patent #4,498,277 I designed a while back that was an improvement on an existing patented mechanical process.

As long as its an improvement and not an identical process/equipment and the name does not conflict with an existing trademark, IMO, you are fine.

Beware, I am not an patent attorney, but I have dealt with them in the past. :)

Hope it helps

Regards

[wild1poet2]

Randall, sounds like you have a distinguishing innovation there(ie;patentable). So I would go ahead and file your patent appication. If you do it yourself it'll cost a few hundred dollars. You should have a business plan written down. Doesn't need to be formal. But you need to plan your sourcing, distribution and marketing. Distribution is probably a website and maybe a few hookups with some large distributors. Then locate a contract manufacturer and like you suggest do up a few prototypes. It can take a few months for the patent office to review your application so you have time.

Best case scenario is your application is approved and your good to go. Worst case is its denied or they request more info. They'll explain why its denied if this happens and you may be able to amend your application to bring it into compliance. At that point a patent attorney may be needed.

Even with a patent you will still run the risk of counterfeiting. It would be easy to reverse engineer something like this. You are unlikely going to spend enough money on legal fees to prevent this. Your best strategy is a good offense. Strike fast and develop a wide and well known distribution network.

[denverpete]

I'm doing a little investigative work on designing and selling aftermarket windscreens (both the black ones that go in the rollbars and the clear plexiglass one for the center.

Can anyone tell me if I'd get sued quickly by Porsche if I designed similar products?

I'm considering doing this because what Porsche sells them for is outrageous and everyone seems to need them.

Any lawyers or inventors out there who can consult me for free on this idea? ;)

Randall,

I'm no lawyer either but I design or even "knock-off" competitor products every day. Patents for manufacturered products are basically worthless. You can either have a patent for the design (shape) or for it's function (mechanical). Either one is extremely easy to circumvent. Changing the shape slightly (say the shape of the lens) would work. Changing or improving the attachment method would almost definately bypass any patent.

Given the cost and time required to patent something, I seriously doubt the windscreen is patented by Porsche. Most patents I've seen in the manufacturing field are typically there because the company likes to say "Patented" or "Patent Pending". Very few manufacturing patents are for products that are completely unique or utilize proprietary technology.

Here's what I'd do - pretend that you've never even seen the existing product. Look at the problem and design your own solution. If you do that, then your design likely won't even be close to Porsche's.

As to patenting your design - well I've already stated my opinion on that subject. I find it slightly hypocritical to patent something because you might be worried about knock-offs when you are essentially knocking off something yourself. I'm not saying your design wouldn't be better - but you get where I'm going. Plus, how big can this market really be? I think you could make money on it - but I wouldn't quit my day job!

I'm a big believer in getting your idea to market quickest. If you're the first you'll have a huge advantage over anyone else hoping to copy you. If and when they do, hopefully you'll be ready to release your next great invention. New products are the lifeblood of any company.

Good luck!

[RandallNeighbour]

the biggest challenge I face is with the mold cost for the rollbar inserts. $5000 a piece! I'd have to sell a lot of insert sets to cover that up front cost.

the center windscreen isn't nearly as hard. I just need someone to manufacture an extruded gasket to hold it in place on the rollbar.

[denverpete]

the biggest challenge I face is with the mold cost for the rollbar inserts. $5000 a piece! I'd have to sell a lot of insert sets to cover that up front cost.

the center windscreen isn't nearly as hard. I just need someone to manufacture an extruded gasket to hold it in place on the rollbar.

So now you see why the damn things are so expensive! People look at parts and think, "How can they possibly charge so much for something so small and simple!". But the truth is that volume drives price more than anything.

Have you talked with an injection molder yet? It sounds like maybe you have. If you have multiple parts, you might be able to reduce your cost by creating a single mold that makes all the parts with only the sprues between them. Then you just "break" or trim the sprues. There are alot of places out there that specialize in small volume runs.

One way to defray the tooling costs is to get the shop to amortize the tooling over a number of parts. Once you figure out your overall costs (and therefore sell price) you need to determine how many you expect to sell. Build the amortized cost of the parts into your overall unit price. Let's say that the molder will produce a minimum of 250 at a time. You agree to amortize over say 1000 units so that your additional cost per unit isn't outrageous. However, if you don't end up buying the 1000 units within 1 year - you typically have to pay the remainder of the tooling costs at that time.

I haven't looked at the roll-bar inserts, but, is this something that you could get extruded instead of molded? They can "form" extrusion or you can have secondary operations performed to it to get the necessary details. Plastic extrusion tooling is pretty cheap!

If you've "proven" your design you might even want to consider China. If you haven't proven your design (because of the mold costs) I would recommend getting an SLA model of the parts. The cost is minimal (maybe $200) and the turn around time is usually only a day or so. You can select the material the SLA model is made out of to most closely match the end material. Here's a link to a company I use: http://www.protogenic.com/

Gaskets are easy - check outhttp://www.sur-seal.com/. I've used them for years through different companies and they are great for custom designs. First though, you might want to check out http://www.minorrubber.com/. Download their extrusion profile catalogs and you might actually find an existing profile that works for you. Either way, tooling for gasket extrusions is pretty cheap. Going with an existing profile might cut down on your "minimum" order. Just make sure you do a bit of research on the material. I'm thinking either EPDM or Neoprene. Your main concern should be ozone, UV, and temperature range along with some general solvent resistance.

Good luck!